New Kids!

Rosie finally 'popped'! Yay! She was huge and we thought if she didn't have kids soon she was going to burst. This is Rosie's first kidding and all went well. In fact, it went so well that we missed it.

By the time Vet2Be went to do chores this morning he found two wet doelings already up and nursing. Rosie had already passed the placenta, too! (Yay for the right amount of copper/cobalt in their diet's now!)

We brought out some towels and the blow dryer to finish drying them off, and then put on their little sweaters.

Probably toooooo many photos, but we are so excited with the first batch of kids!

Hello!

It's so nice to be here!

Lilly looks like she is smiling! She is wrapped up in an old towel waiting for her turn with the blow dryer. Lilly is the quiet one (so far).

Rosie, the mama. She is a S'nubian, Nubian mama and Saanen papa. She should give ALOT of milk this year!

Lilly waiting for her turn for the blow dryer. She loved being all snuggled up and warm in the towel. She almost went to sleep!

Rosie, the mama. She was born last spring and came out loving people!

Poppy is first with the blow dryer. She loved feeling the warm air all over her. The noise didn't bother her one bit! Poppy is the noisy one!

Lilly's turn! Ahhhhhh..... I think I could just sleep right here all day!

Poppy in her purple sweater.

Lilly in her red sweater.

All three are tucked into a stall by themselves for the day. The weather is nice, but we like to keep them all together for a day or two before we let them all out with the herd.

Three more goats to kid! Annie should be kidding out in the next week or so, and Janice (we call her the Grandma goat because she is the oldest and takes good care of all the babies!) should kid out within a month. Clover, the Nubian, will kid out in June. She mis-carried and then decided that she wanted to be bred again, so we consented and she was bred to the Saanen buck again.

Vegetable Bouillon~Part 2

I decided that I would try drying the bouillon because I was sure I wouldn't be able to use it quickly enough if I left it in the fridge.

Here is a link to my original post on Vegetable Bouillon.

I sprayed the silicone mat with olive oil so that the mushy stuff wouldn't stick when I tried to take it off.

Here is the green goop spread on the silicone mat in the dryer.

I wasn't sure there would be enough airflow around the vegetable bouillon, so I put another tray on top of the mat.

I started the dehydrator and had the temperature set on the lowest setting. I didn't really want to cook the vegetables. But after about 12 hours there was no change... it was still mushy, not even the surface was dry.

So I turned up the heat to the highest setting. It still took another 36 hours for it to completely dry. Maybe next time I will spread it thinner and start with high heat.

Here it is broken and put in the blender before I powder it.

All powdered! About 3 cups of wet vegetable bouillon fits into an old yeast jar, which holds about 1/2 cup (I think).

It smells really good! And I like that I don't have to store it in the refrigerator or the freezer. It tasted great in the meat pie last week (before dehydrating), now I'm tempted to try sprinkling it on some chicken before Hubby grills it.

Got some suggestions on how to use it? I'd love to hear them. I made the bouillon because I thought it looked like a neat thing to do, not because I know what to do with it now that I've got it. Weird, I know, but it keeps life interesting!

Bunny Update

Here's a link to the first post about Darcy, the bunny with the abscess.

Vet2Be spends every other day in a traditional High School, the other school days he is home or volunteering at the local veterinarians. On Monday I picked him up early because Darcy needed some medical attention, and I wasn't going to be the one to do it.

This is what I saw when I went to do chores in the morning. The dead part of the skin had started to come off the top of his head.

This part needs to be removed. We didn't want to cut this part off while it was still attached on the other side. We knew it was dead because it was hard, but since we haven't done this type of surgery, we thought we would wait a few days to see what happened. The yellowish stuff on the skin flap is the infection that has dried and crystallized.

Everything all ready. Scissors sitting in alcohol, plenty of cotton swabs ready to clean any infection and prep the area, chlorhexadine (the blue liquid) in the cup.

After cleaning all the infection off the skin (using the tweezers and chlorhexadine) Vet2Be was able to cut through the dead skin with some very sharp sewing scissors. The scissors weren't sharp enough to cut through the dead skin and the crystalized infection together. No, the bunny didn't jump or squirm. He didn't feel anything, he's a very calm bunny.

You can see the bits of crystallized infection on the towel. This is Darcy's head after the dead part was cut away.

We sprayed the infected area with silver nano particles because Vet2Be wasn't thrilled about the idea of administering penicillin to his bunny for the next 6 weeks. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a shot of penicillin every day for six weeks, either!

One of the businesses that Hubby is involved in starting produces specialized silver and gold nano particles, completely different that the colloidal silver you can buy in the store. This is much more effective at killing infections than anything else that is on the market.

I can't describe how they do it yet because the process is being patented. Suffice it to say that there are four Ph.D. scientists involved and all are highly trained in different fields. They have come together on this project and it is amazing what they are finding out with their experiments!

Curious about the silver nano particles? This is Darcy's head about 10 hours after the the picture above. Dramatic improvement in a short time.

10 hours later the wound had begun to shrink, the swelling was down, Darcy was moving around normally and not hiding in a corner. He was eating and drinking normally, too.

We'll continue to apply the nano silver for the next few weeks. We'll post as Darcy improves. We are hoping that his skin will grow back over the top of his head and that he will be back to normal in about 6-8 weeks.

If this treatment works, we have some friends that raise meat rabbits who will be very, very happy! No more antibiotics for abscesses!

NOT For Weak Stomachs!

The photos are at the end of this post, if you have a weak stomach, please don't read the rest of the post! The reason I am posting this is to provide information about abscesses to other hobby farmers who might have either rabbits or bunnies. I'm not posting to gross anyone out. My blog is also my 'Farm Journal', to remind us of what we did when, what obstacles we were able to over come, and what we were able to learn.

I debated even posting this, but my 10 year old niece thought it was interesting and she learned alot from it. So, I decided it was okay to post.

Vet2Be's 4-H leader told him a long time ago that if you have livestock, sooner or later you will have dead-stock. We've been pretty lucky and not lost too many animals. Probably because we've been diligent about learning what we can about them.

The photos that follow are of Vet2Be's bunny, Darcy. In the winter the bunny's cages are protected with wood on all sides so that they can stay warm. We also don't take them out very often in the winter. They seem to like to bed down in the winter and be left alone.

The weather has been warming up a bit and we took the boards down. We didn't notice over the past few weeks that Darcy had only been sitting with his left side (and good eye) towards the front of the cage. We found Darcy with a huge abscess! Abscesses in bunnies are soooo hard to get rid of! We know, we've tried before.

This one had just ruptured, and it was quite large. It took Vet2Be about 90 minutes to clean out the wound.

I would never in my wildest dreams thought I would be able to handle something like this 6 or 7 years ago. We've learned so much about animals and how to take care of them. We've also learned it is our responsibility to do the best we can and learn as much as we can to take care of the 4-legged friends in our care.

The following pictures are very graphic--if you have a weak stomach and don't like the look of infections, then stop reading right here and come visit us another time. I promise to always warn you if I think things might be too graphic.

Just so you understand our choice of words..... bunnies are pets. Rabbits aren't pets. That's how we, as hobby farmers, tell the difference between the two words. We have bunnies that were orphaned when their previous owners couldn't take care of them anymore, we have never raised rabbits.

Here are two links to information about abscesses in rabbits that have no photos.

Ontario Rabbit Education Organization

Use of Penicillin to Treat Abscesses in Rabbits

Here come the photos.....

Bunnies don't have the same enzymes that we do, so their infections can't drain the same way ours can. It is about the consistency of toothpaste--really. Vet2Be took out quite a bit.

This was a large abscess.... especially for a tiny bunny. How did it get so big? The bunny sat in the cage and only looked out of his left eye. Since it is winter, we never saw the other side of his head until we removed some of the boards that were protecting the cage during the winter. We never noticed that he always looked at us with his left eye.

This is about 1/2 way cleaned out. Vet2Be used Chlorhexidine 2% solution on the Q-tips. That's what they use at the vet's office to prep for surgery as well as clean out wounds. The wound itself is about 1/2 the length of a Q-tip. Chlorhexidine is the same antimicrobial found in Hibiclens.

Darcy (the bunny) put his head inside the towel about 2/3's of the way through the procedure. He needed a break. He was a really, really good bunny! He sat very still for almost all of the procedure.

After the wound was cleaned out, Vet2Be put neosporin inside. We've been keeping an eye on it and will continue to clean it out daily.

Nope, this didn't gross Vet2Be out at all. He's watched so many surgeries at the vet's office, and watched them treat so many wounds that were worse than this, that he just did his job and it didn't bother him at all. In fact, he looked up at the clock about 50 minutes after we started and it surprised him that so much time had passed! He said that now he understands how a vet can do a surgery that is long and repetitive without going crazy. The techs get tired because they aren't doing as much .

By Thursday morning Darcy was hopping around his cage like he does every spring. He acted as if there was nothing wrong with him and hadn't been through such an ordeal on Sunday. It was great to see him standing on his hind legs and begging for a treat! Bananas and carrots for the sick bunny! Yay!

It was interesting to read about penicillin being used to treat these infections. Vet2Be will check with the vet he volunteers for to see if it would be okay for us to try penicillin on Darcy. When we took care of an abscess on a bunny a few years ago we never ran across anything that said we could use penicillin on them. I'm glad that people are continually able to find better ways to help animals heal.

Master Cheese Maker Machine

I was reading on one of the Cheesemaking Yahoo groups about this cheese maker made from a rice maker, so I checked it out.

I am on the list to get one the next time he makes one because they look sooooo great! He won't have time to make another batch of them until summer. Ooooooo..... I want it NOW!

Patience.... patience.....

Features that make me want one:
The Cheese Maker will raise the temperature of the milk over a specified length of time, no more sitting at the stove and fiddling with the temperature control knob! Yay!

It comes with 7 recipes pre-programmed into the computer. You can customize any recipe before you start, but it reverts back to the original when the unit is powered up the next time. He is considering making all of the recipes permanently modifiable, which would be great! It has a pasteurize recipe that is set for 145 F for 30 minutes, too.

He makes two sizes, one that will hold 2 1/2 gallons of milk and one that will hold 3 3/4 gallons of milk. I'm on the list for the larger one, but that will mean I need to order a larger cheese mold, too, since the one I have will only hold about 2 pounds of cheese.

The next batch of cheese makers that he makes will sell for around $370 and $395 plus shipping. For the amount of cheese I make, this is a reasonable price.... very reasonable because there are so many other things on my 'to do' list. I can do things in short spurts around the house (cleaning bathrooms, vacuuming, dusting, mending, laundry.... you know because you do the same things), and let the cheese maker do the stirring. I am still available to come back and check it every 5 minutes, but I don't have to stand right by the stove.

Here is the first of 16 videos he made to show how to use his Cheese Maker.


Here is the second video that shows the controller:


I love being part of the 'old world' and the 'new world' at the same time. I love the season changes, being with the animals, working with my hands, and doing things that were important to families 50 or more years ago. I also love being part of the 'new world' and having access to computers and the internet, electricity, cars, and grocery stores. I love some of the new gadgets (like this cheese maker) but I don't feel as if I have to own every new thing that comes along (I don't own a swiffer!)

I love living in a small-ish house because it makes me pick and choose what 'things' are important and need a place in our home, and what 'things' aren't important to have. What things will truly make our life a little easier and more enjoyable, and what things will cause more work and upkeep than they are worth.

I love my life! And I will make sure to find some room in our house for this cheese maker!

Wire Egg Basket

I ran across an ad for a wire egg basket and washing kit. (Stromberg's).

Sounds nice, but I didn't want to pay $130.95 for the set.

So I looked around for wire baskets, they were still pretty pricey.

We usually bring the eggs into the house in an old plastic honey container that doesn't have a handle. But that also brings in straw, which doesn't go down the disposal very well.

I'm a little slow--or maybe it is just that we are still newbies and that's why I never thought of using a wire basket to bring the eggs in with.

I thought if I could find a really cheap wire basket at the thrift store, that might just do the trick. I would love to leave more hay and straw out in the barnyard!

I found one for $1.50! And Vet2Be promptly took a hammer to all the cute little beads that were decorating the butterfly wings... which is just fine with me!

Dirty eggs in our new egg basket. Mostly duck eggs because the ducks like to get their work done early in the day. Chickens get their work done when they get around to it, which is rarely first thing in the morning.

We tried it yesterday and it worked great! Probably not as well as a basket that has circular wires, so I'll keep watching at the thrift store for something more like a 'real' egg basket. It's close to Easter so I am fairly sure that there will be one somewhere!

Vegetable Bouillon

I posted that I wanted to try this, and I did!

It looked really interesting, but I wasn't quite sure what to do with it after I made it. Sometimes I do things like that. It looks fun or interesting so I try it, but then I think.... now what!?

I found the recipe here at 101 Cookbooks.

I had no idea what celery root looked like.... I had to find a photo on the internet before I went to the grocery store.

I didn't know what a shallot was, either. Sheesh! I couldn't use this one. I didn't notice it was black when I bought it. Good thing I bought three!

Everything but the leeks all weighed and ready for the blender. I forgot to buy the leeks. I went back to the grocery store and bought them the next day. Clockwise from left to right: celery root, parsley, celery, garlic and shallots, carrots, sun-dried tomatoes that I dehydrated last fall. You can find the post here.

I don't have a food processor. I have this mega blender. I wouldn't try this in a little blender....

Everything blended together except the salt.

The recipe calls for alot of salt! I'm sure the salt is there to cure and preserve the veggie puree.

Here's what it looks like blended with the salt.

I put it all in a airtight container and stuck it in the fridge. I added the leeks the next day. I didn't use the fennel or cilantro. Those are not two flavors that our family likes, so I left them out.

Oh, don't taste it yet. Not even a tiny smidge on a spoon. It smells great--but YUCK! It tastes really strong and salty at this point!

I sent some over to two friends who don't mind trying my experiments. I wasn't quite sure what to do with the green sludge myself. One family really enjoys cooking, the other family loves to try my experiments. They are both honest in their feedback, too.

I think I might try to dehydrate some to see if it will be easier to store.

I decided to use it in our Cornish Pastie for dinner last night. I used it as a base to make the sauce. I had to use about 1 1/2 tablespoons in about 1 cup of water to get the taste strong enough to make a difference. Vet2Be thought that the bouillon smelled nasty in the container, but he thought it was great in the pastie.

(you can find the post about how it dehydrated here.)

Homemade Bouillion

Gonna try this!

101 Cookbooks

I found another link for it here:

Jennie's Kitchen

Snow!

Our daughter, Spunky, and her husband live on the other side of the continent. They have had soooo much snow and cold! I don't complain about our weather, I am grateful for the chance it gives me to work on knitting and other projects that I can't work on during the spring and summer.

Here are a few photos of what they have had to live with the past few months.

Their dog thought it was great fun, until she got stuck and had to be dug out!

They thought about renting a snow blower. But they had to dig their cars to drive to town. So that kinda defeated the idea of renting a snow blower!

They are both college students (Spunky is also working full time) so buying something more than a shovel isn't on their 'to do' list. 

They worked and saved so that he could go to school without having to take out loans. Spunky decided to upgrade her degree, so she is in school, too. Her job allows her to do both. He is on the 'fast track' program and isn't allowed to work.

They are a pretty amazing couple.

New Beehives

Hubby has earned more this year than last year. Things are going much better for us this year! It's exciting for him and for our family.

One of the things he loves is beekeeping (he also loves building and refinishing violins). He decided that he wants a few more beehives this year.

At this point, the boxes are taking over the great room. But he's happy and so am I. One of the new hives is a Styrofoam hive. I'll let you know how that all works out.

For now... this is what it looks like around the great room. Lots of boxes and not room for much else right now!

The boxes on the left are full of frames, legs, and other beehive stuff. The one on the right has round combs in it.

More frames (round ones) and combs from last year that will be cleaned out and re-used.

The combs come out looking like this.

New supers. He just finished putting these together. They aren't painted yet. But it isn't warm enough to paint outside yet.

The new Styrofoam hive. No room in the house for this! It is out in the gazebo.

The new bases that will go under all the hives. Hubby thinks these will be much better than the cement blocks and wood pallets that he has been using.

He has his order in for bees and queens, too. He'll be putting Carniolins in some hives and Italians in others. It will be exciting to see how the bees do this year. He's got different spots for the bees, too. Some in our yard, some in a neighbors, and some about 40 minutes south of us.

Always the scientist (soooo great!) he will be keeping track of which bees do best where. I doubt that he will eventually go with only one type of bee or one type of hive. He has too much fun checking variables and seeing if he can improve whatever isn't up to what he thinks it should be.

That goes for everything, not just bees. Always adjusting, always tweaking, always trying to improve. And that is a great way to live life!

Bored

Hubby goes out of town often. When he is gone, it is just me and Vet2Be. He gets bored sometimes and plays chess by himself. I'm not much of a chess player, and playing by himself gives him a chance to work out different strategies.

Sometimes I feel badly for him. But sometimes I think it is good for him to know how much he loves his Dad. And his brothers and sisters who are either married or away in school. 

I think solitude is something that is missing these days. There is always noise in the background. Cell phones, TVs, iPods..... not much time to sit and think things through.

We love it when everyone is home, too.
So much joy in the house!

A New Cheese Press

Sheepy's dad made me a cheese press. He made one for her, too.

I haven't gotten to try it out for pressing cheese yet. But I had an idea for using it to hang my chevre while it was draining! I also had a few minutes to gauge it using my weights and a bathroom scale.

Here's the link to my old cheese press. This one is much nicer and easier to use!

You can see the masking tape I wrote on to mark how much weight would be on the press. I decided I didn't want it to be permanent just in case I decide to use different weights.

I used an 'S' hook to hang my cheese from the end post. You can see in the previous picture how I put a pot beneath to catch the whey. I also had a book under the press so that the arm would be higher when I hung the cheese.

A Bit of "Pretty" to Brighten My Day

I see so many lovely photos on other blogs. I'm not much of a 'beauty' photographer. I can't seem to capture the beautiful in the simple as well as others do.

But I saw these today and decided to just snap a few photos of them.  These are the Primroses that I have sitting in the copper tea kettle my Grandma gave me.

Have a Glorious Day!

Getting Ready for Kidding

We haven't kidded yet. But Rosie is getting close! We can tell because her rear end is getting a bit swollen looking. She isn't bagging up yet, so that means it isn't within the next few days.

Vet2Be wasn't great about putting dates on a calendar this year. Since the goats are really his project, I decided last year I was going to let him be responsible for it. He did great last year--but not this time around!

We know some people in California who ended up loosing their doe and kid last month. The kid got wedged into the birth canal. It wouldn't go back in, and it couldn't come out. So sad! This was their first year kidding. It breaks my heart when a family ends up loosing, not only a pet, but also part of their food supply.

The friend we have in common told me about the situation and asked what I would have done. I think I would have gone in and worked harder at pushing the kid back in and re-positioning it to get it out.

I decided to ask on the goat yahoo groups I am a part of to see what they said.

The rest of this post is rather long. It is the most helpful responses I got. I wanted to store them here, on my blog, so that if I run into a situation like that I will have some sort of reference to look at.

Here's the question I posted:
I heard about this situation yesterday and received details this  morning. We are not very experienced (we've only had goats for about 5 years) so I would like some input. In my very limited experience I think there was nothing to be done in this situation except what was done.

I know the doe was Nubian (I know this is a Saanen group, but lots of you have other breeds) and this was her first time kidding. There are no veterinarians in the area (they are way up in the mountains about 2 hours from anywhere.)

Here is the email I received:
"We were invited to go to the Gardners for lunch [on Sunday], though he hadn't been to church that day because one of his goats went into labor. We came by afterward expecting they had finished, but they were still in the event after five hours. Turner has experience doing such things with dairy cows, so we got in to help. The kid had wedged in the birth canal and it's head had been folded back, neck broken. They were working frantically to save the goat, but couldn't force the corpse back far enough to dislodge it. Unfortunately, Jim had to put her down. He later said he's never had such a hard time shooting anything as he did Crystal, the goat.

"After she was down, we sliced her open to see if there were any other viable kids, but there was only the one. We found part of the reason for the complications was that the one kid was about 125% as large as it should have been. Afterward we helped bury Crystal." (end of email)

Last year we helped with a neighbor's goat who had been in labor for 15 hours (I didn't know about it or I would have been there much, much sooner). Their goat presented in a similar way, except the head was folded forward and the front legs and head were pointed towards the doe's head. I was able to move the head and legs to get the kid out, but the kid wasn't wedged in the birth canal so we were able to save the doe.

I don't think there was anything that could have been done to save Crystal (the doe from the email), the kid, or to avoid the problem in the first place. Any thoughts on this situation would be appreciated. If we encounter a similar situation I would like to have an idea of how to handle it. ---Thanks everyone.

Here are the responses I got:
I've had things like this happen in my 28 years of goat keeping and it's why I always check does as soon as I know they are in labor.  Often you can check as soon as the cervix is open and reposition the kid before it gets too far into the birth canal.   If I feel a nose and feet I back off and let her kid on her own.  If not I keep checking until I can figure out what's coming and repositioned as  necessary. 
Often with these mal-presented kids you'll find that the doe takes a long time to totally open the cervix.  You'll often see her having a contraction that seems to abruptly end rather than just trail off. 

These are all reasons to check on how the kid is coming.

I know that lots of people say hands out!!! but believe me you won't find a vet that will keep their hands out.  And as my vet said, "show me one ob doc that doesn't check multiple times."
I'm sure you'll get lots of other responses and everyone does things a bit differently but I'd always check.  Some other signs of early labor. Goat going off by herself; stopping what she's doing and staring into space; holding her breath for a bit.  Of course some do like our old doe, Elvira, and start screaming at the first little pain and keep screaming without stopping until after the kids are born, or like Jose who would start flinging barn cats as her first sign of labor.  Then there are does like Odette who didn't show any signs and kidded while standing on her hind legs eating hay.
Bev - CharisManor Saanens - Paramount Toggs

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We kid out around 100 does every year.  I've had this happen more times than I can remember over the years.  I push the kid back in.  It's hard.  It has to be done. Don't give up until that kid is back far enough that it can be turned.  Then rearrange and pull it out.  Sometimes it takes lube to unstick the kid.  Last year it was a friend's 8 year old first freshening Angora doe with a stuck kid.  Lube worked along with a lot of muscle. 

Sometimes it takes dismembering the kid and bringing it out in pieces.  The one we had to dismember was one I almost gave up on.  Neighbors had a pygmy that got bred by a full size buck at the stockyard when they bought her.  She was tiny. The kid was huge, dead and head back.  They had let her labor all day and called me at around midnight.  Doe was exhausted and close to the end.  Old tobacco barn (Appalachian mountain folks), no lights, no meds, freezing cold, they would not call the vet but they loved this little doe.  Anyway, we ended up cutting the kid in pieces and pulling it out by light of a lantern. 

The doe recovered and the folks were amenable to me giving them meds to give to the doe.  I was so sore from the pulling and manipulating and lying face down in the muck.  It was definitely a fine line to walk because I'm not a vet but the alternative was the doe was going to die and they saw me as their savior, so I guess it worked out.   

Anyway, once the kid is out, I give the doe lots of supportive therapy along with antibiotics and watch her closely.  Even if it seems like you're really stressing the doe, if the alternative is to put her down, then the choice is try everything up to that.

I also would never walk away from a doe in labor.  We live almost 24/7 in the barn when they're kidding. If a doe is pushing for 30 minutes with no progress, I go in to see what the kids positions are.  Be very clean and very careful, but assess before they get so far into labor that the kid is stuck.  My philosophy is that helping her shorten her labor gives her a boost on recovery and she'll milk better over her entire lactation if kidding is less stressful.  I come from a background of midwifery, homebirth, natural birth, and not interfering with labor.  But goats and sheep seem to have more complications due to the number of kids/lambs they carry.

Hope that helps!  Do email me if you need any clarification on what I put down here.

Chris Owen - Spinning Spider Creamery

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If the kid has not been delivered in an hours time you should scrub up and go in to check and see if the cervix is dilated and the kid in the proper position.  The head back kids can be hard to deliver but if you get to them right away before the does has spent a long time pushing they will not be so tightly wedged.  Sometimes I need to put a sterlized shoe string behind the kids head to keep the head in position for delivery while I pull on the front legs.  Other wise some will keep flipping the head back.  Others I can keep my hand on the back of the head and deliver.  Depends on the  size of the doe and kids head.  Sometimes it helps to put ob lube on the kids head and the back of your hand.

Sherry- (Raising saanens since 1976)

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ust this week sometyhing simular happened. A friend of mine fell on the ice and broke her arm. To help out, I took 5 of her heavily bred does. One went into labor. I was able to get the front legs in position and knew at that moment that it was a huge kid. It appeared that the head was going straight back , not to either side. I have delivered many kidsd and I knew I could not get that head where it needed to go, so I loaded the doe up and took her to my vet.

Using his hand, he also was unable to budge the head. But went back into hjis office and came out with a noose. He slide the metal noose into the doe and reached back far enough to get behind the head. A few pulls the head snaped around just above the front legs and came right out. We weighted her and she was 15 pounds. She was born alive but we lost her a little later on.  Another doe about 12 pounds came and was fine. Doe is fine

Gay Bottoms - Briar Bay Saanens+   Texas

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 One thing that could be done would have been to go in earlier when the doe was probably more fully dialated.

 If the doe has broke her water and has pushed hard more than a few times and it's been like an hour or more I think seriously about going in before the birth canal gets too small.

I think people fuss too much over goats in general, treating them when they don't need it but one thing I have sort of learned with my goats over the years is that if something seems wrong kidding wise then something is probably wrong and you should go in and check.

If that doe is up and down laboring for an hour I'm sort of ready to go in and see if there's a problem. Most of mine once they actually break water and get down and push 2 or 3 times if they don't kid within an hour something's wrong.  --Jim

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 Every breeder has their own ideas and their own management style including how they deal with difficult births. Here is what we do. We have had many quads and triplets over the years and when you have more than twins (sometimes even with twins) you can count on one or more of them being out of alignment for unassisted birthing. For example we have had 6 does birth already over the past three weeks and two had triplets and one had quads. With this history we attend all births. On numerous occasions we had had the head turned back, head forward and front feet tucked under, tail first, butt first, and back first, nearly always with birth canal jammed tight. We have never resorted to a C-section or had to put a doe down. One way or the other we dig the kids out while the other person restrains the doe. Granted, some cases present more of a challenge than others but we would never put one down. If necessary, in order to save the doe, I would dismember the dead kid and bring it out in pieces if I couldn't get it out any other way. If I ripped the doe a little in the process I would stitch her up and treat her with antibiotics for a few days. I can't think of a situation where I would destroy the doe.

The breeder may not be able to avoid the situation you describe, we have them here from time-to-time, but if you run into another situation like that please call me on your cell phone from the birthing area    and I will talk you through it and if we start soon enough likely save the doe and kids both.

Noah and Sue Goddard
Purebred Nubian Dairy Goats
Grade A Dairy and Cheese Plant, LLC

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 Felecia sent me this link to Kinne's Mini's, a well organized website with very helpful articles.

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 Noah Goddard is one of the most helpful and kind 'internet' people I know. I was grateful for all the responses I got. Every one of them had a little different tid-bit of information that I, hopefully, will never have to use. It was also mini-class for Vet2Be. He learned alot from reading, too.